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	<title>Comments on: TDD: fewer bugs to production, longer to write</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/</link>
	<description>Working software daily</description>
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		<title>By: Isaac Gouy</title>
		<link>http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/comment-page-1/#comment-594</link>
		<dc:creator>Isaac Gouy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 19:16:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/#comment-594</guid>
		<description>&gt; I can’t find the quotation.

“Trade-offs between Productivity and Quality in Selecting Software Development Practices”

http://www.pitt.edu/~ckemerer/CK%20research%20papers/TradeoffProductivityQuality_MacCormackKemererCusumanoCrandall03.pdf


p84 paragraph beginning &quot;Overall, our results suggest...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; I can&acirc;t find the quotation.</p>
<p>&acirc;Trade-offs between Productivity and Quality in Selecting Software Development Practices&acirc;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.pitt.edu/~ckemerer/CK%20research%20papers/TradeoffProductivityQuality_MacCormackKemererCusumanoCrandall03.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.pitt.edu/~ckemerer/CK%20research%20papers/TradeoffProductivityQuality_MacCormackKemererCusumanoCrandall03.pdf</a></p>
<p>p84 paragraph beginning &#8220;Overall, our results suggest&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: steve.freeman</title>
		<link>http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/comment-page-1/#comment-587</link>
		<dc:creator>steve.freeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 21:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/#comment-587</guid>
		<description>@Isaac Are you sure you have the same paper? I can&#039;t find the quotation. 

On the other hand, the authors start their conclusions with, &quot;Our experiences and distilled lessons learned, all point to the fact that TDD seems to be applicable in various domains and can significantly reduce the defect density of developed software without significant productivity reduction of the development team.&quot; Which sounds like an overall win.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Isaac Are you sure you have the same paper? I can&#8217;t find the quotation. </p>
<p>On the other hand, the authors start their conclusions with, &#8220;Our experiences and distilled lessons learned, all point to the fact that <span class="caps">TDD </span>seems to be applicable in various domains and can significantly reduce the defect density of developed software without significant productivity reduction of the development team.&#8221; Which sounds like an overall win.</p>
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		<title>By: Isaac Gouy</title>
		<link>http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/comment-page-1/#comment-581</link>
		<dc:creator>Isaac Gouy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 17:07:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/#comment-581</guid>
		<description>Stumbled on this again while looking for a link to the paper.

steve.freeman &gt; but, again, I don&#039;t see the case for it being a trade-off

Given the authors state &quot;only one practice&#8212;releasing an early prototype during development&#8212;was associated with both higher productivity and a lower defect rate&quot; perhaps you should read the paper again.

&quot;Integration or regression testing at check-in&quot; DID NOT contribute to higher productivity.
&quot;Integration or regression testing at check-in&quot; DID contribute to lower defect rate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stumbled on this again while looking for a link to the paper.</p>
<p>steve.freeman &gt; but, again, I don&#8217;t see the case for it being a trade-off</p>
<p>Given the authors state &#8220;only one practice&mdash;releasing an early prototype during development&mdash;was associated with both higher productivity and a lower defect rate&#8221; perhaps you should read the paper again.</p>
<p>&#8220;Integration or regression testing at check-in&#8221; DID <span class="caps">NOT </span>contribute to higher productivity.<br />
&#8220;Integration or regression testing at check-in&#8221; DID contribute to lower defect rate.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Webster</title>
		<link>http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/comment-page-1/#comment-573</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Webster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 18:41:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/#comment-573</guid>
		<description>Just to agree with steve.freeman. Yes of course it encourages Developers to think about what they need. And remember that TDD is really about designing classes and methods. It is not directly about testing. So my statement to business owners and Managers that resist TDD would be to say, &#039;Do you really want code that has not been designed?&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to agree with steve.freeman. Yes of course it encourages Developers to think about what they need. And remember that <span class="caps">TDD </span>is really about designing classes and methods. It is not directly about testing. So my statement to business owners and Managers that resist <span class="caps">TDD </span>would be to say, &#8216;Do you really want code that has not been designed?&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: steve.freeman</title>
		<link>http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/comment-page-1/#comment-476</link>
		<dc:creator>steve.freeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 23:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/#comment-476</guid>
		<description>I think the resistance is more to do with the counter-intuitive shift that most people would have to make. My call would be that getting the quality in early reduces the cost to delivery, unless you&#039;re doing something extremely simple or extremely flaky. 

There&#039;s also another level of value that most of the studies don&#039;t take into account which is the extent to which writing a test first encourages people to think about what they really want, rather than building in speculative or cool ideas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the resistance is more to do with the counter-intuitive shift that most people would have to make. My call would be that getting the quality in early reduces the cost to delivery, unless you&#8217;re doing something extremely simple or extremely flaky. </p>
<p>There&#8217;s also another level of value that most of the studies don&#8217;t take into account which is the extent to which writing a test first encourages people to think about what they really want, rather than building in speculative or cool ideas.</p>
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		<title>By: P Simmons</title>
		<link>http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/comment-page-1/#comment-475</link>
		<dc:creator>P Simmons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 17:53:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/#comment-475</guid>
		<description>Maybe the resistance to take-up of TDD can be explained as follows:

If the initial value to the business is greater than the cost of the 15-35% increase in development time, then this is the real pressure forcing management and thereby IT teams to focus on delivery and thus push TDD out of the picture?  ie: Business are happy to pay the higher defect cost, because they get value earlier (assuming the initial user acceptance testing phase meets their initial expectations).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe the resistance to take-up of <span class="caps">TDD </span>can be explained as follows:</p>
<p>If the initial value to the business is greater than the cost of the 15-35% increase in development time, then this is the real pressure forcing management and thereby IT teams to focus on delivery and thus push <span class="caps">TDD </span>out of the picture?  ie: Business are happy to pay the higher defect cost, because they get value earlier (assuming the initial user acceptance testing phase meets their initial expectations).</p>
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		<title>By: steve.freeman</title>
		<link>http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/comment-page-1/#comment-474</link>
		<dc:creator>steve.freeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:21:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/#comment-474</guid>
		<description>@Isaac. I read the first paper and it doesn&#039;t clash with the MS paper at all. In particular, the trade-off is between &quot;conventional&quot; measures of quality such as a detailed spec. In practice, they say that &quot;agile&quot; practices such as repeated testing can compensate for a lack of preplanning, and that practices such as early prototypes provide a huge improvement.

I don&#039;t have the full second paper but, again, I don&#039;t see the case for it being a trade-off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Isaac. I read the first paper and it doesn&#8217;t clash with the MS paper at all. In particular, the trade-off is between &#8220;conventional&#8221; measures of quality such as a detailed spec. In practice, they say that &#8220;agile&#8221; practices such as repeated testing can compensate for a lack of preplanning, and that practices such as early prototypes provide a huge improvement.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t have the full second paper but, again, I don&#8217;t see the case for it being a trade-off.</p>
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		<title>By: Isaac Gouy</title>
		<link>http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/comment-page-1/#comment-471</link>
		<dc:creator>Isaac Gouy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 21:48:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/#comment-471</guid>
		<description>steve.freeman &gt; it&#039;s worth taking the time to get it right

It&#039;s a trade-off.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download;jsessionid=411969483763E32FCB95EDDCDE72AEDA?doi=10.1.1.61.1633&amp;rep=rep1&amp;type=pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Trade-offs between Productivity and Quality in Selecting Software Development Practices&quot;&lt;/a&gt; 

Also, see &lt;a href=&quot;http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/2201.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Product-Development Practices That Work: How Internet Companies Build Software&quot;&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>steve.freeman &gt; it&#8217;s worth taking the time to get it right</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a trade-off.</p>
<p><a href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download;jsessionid=411969483763E32FCB95EDDCDE72AEDA?doi=10.1.1.61.1633&amp;rep=rep1&amp;type=pdf" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Trade-offs between Productivity and Quality in Selecting Software Development Practices&#8221;</a> </p>
<p>Also, see <a href="http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/2201.html" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Product-Development Practices That Work: How Internet Companies Build Software&#8221;</a></p>
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		<title>By: TDD: Does it make you slower? at Mark Needham</title>
		<link>http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/comment-page-1/#comment-362</link>
		<dc:creator>TDD: Does it make you slower? at Mark Needham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 23:44:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/#comment-362</guid>
		<description>[...] terms of whether or not actual development time takes longer with TDD, Microsoft recently released a paper which suggested that code written using a TDD approach takes longer to write originally but puts [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] terms of whether or not actual development time takes longer with <span class="caps">TDD,</span> Microsoft recently released a paper which suggested that code written using a <span class="caps">TDD </span>approach takes longer to write originally but puts [...]</p>
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		<title>By: steve.freeman</title>
		<link>http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/comment-page-1/#comment-357</link>
		<dc:creator>steve.freeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:12:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/#comment-357</guid>
		<description>@Mark. Fixed the link. They seem to have changed the capitalisation. Ta.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Mark. Fixed the link. They seem to have changed the capitalisation. Ta.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Levison</title>
		<link>http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/comment-page-1/#comment-356</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Levison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/#comment-356</guid>
		<description>BTW The link to the paper is broken.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span class="caps">BTW</span> The link to the paper is broken.</p>
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		<title>By: steve.freeman</title>
		<link>http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/comment-page-1/#comment-349</link>
		<dc:creator>steve.freeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:22:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/#comment-349</guid>
		<description>@Jason, in which case the story would be better because they reduced the bug count and might not have taken longer after all...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jason, in which case the story would be better because they reduced the bug count and might not have taken longer after all&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Gorman</title>
		<link>http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/comment-page-1/#comment-348</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Gorman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 22:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/#comment-348</guid>
		<description>I can only conclude from this statistically inconclusive study that managers of teams who say they&#039;re doing TDD tend to believe that development takes longer.

Like Agent Mulder, I want to believe - I really do - but I&#039;m afraid my search for statistically compelling evidence continues...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can only conclude from this statistically inconclusive study that managers of teams who say they&#8217;re doing <span class="caps">TDD </span>tend to believe that development takes longer.</p>
<p>Like Agent Mulder, I want to believe &#8211; I really do &#8211; but I&#8217;m afraid my search for statistically compelling evidence continues&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: William Pietri</title>
		<link>http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/comment-page-1/#comment-347</link>
		<dc:creator>William Pietri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 18:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/#comment-347</guid>
		<description>Interesting! Thanks for the link, Steve!

My suspicion is there would be a substantial divergence between subjective increased development time and actual development time. There are three factors I&#039;d expect to cause overestimates:

First, people notice the new thing more. Second, they&#039;d have a hard time noticing the time spent not debugging. And third, software projects are always under time pressure, so many managers habitually find and presents reasons why the team isn&#039;t going as fast as people want.

The decrease in defect rates matches my experience, though. For one team where we mainly coached them on TDD, we cut bug rates by 50% on the first project, and by 50% again on the second project. For an experienced team doing full XP, I&#039;d expect 90%+.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting! Thanks for the link, Steve!</p>
<p>My suspicion is there would be a substantial divergence between subjective increased development time and actual development time. There are three factors I&#8217;d expect to cause overestimates:</p>
<p>First, people notice the new thing more. Second, they&#8217;d have a hard time noticing the time spent not debugging. And third, software projects are always under time pressure, so many managers habitually find and presents reasons why the team isn&#8217;t going as fast as people want.</p>
<p>The decrease in defect rates matches my experience, though. For one team where we mainly coached them on <span class="caps">TDD, </span>we cut bug rates by 50% on the first project, and by 50% again on the second project. For an experienced team doing full <span class="caps">XP,</span> I&#8217;d expect 90%+.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Ervine</title>
		<link>http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/comment-page-1/#comment-345</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Ervine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 11:36:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.m3p.co.uk/blog/2008/12/08/tdd-fewer-bugs-to-production-longer-to-write/#comment-345</guid>
		<description>Interesting read - just wondering if you&#039;d come across any similar articles regarding pair programming?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting read &#8211; just wondering if you&#8217;d come across any similar articles regarding pair programming?</p>
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